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Rogue à Mists of Pandaria
5

Ghostcrawler nous a encore écrit un véritable roman sur les forums officiels. Le sujet du jour étant le voleur et son avenir à Mists of Pandaria. Il semble qu'il ne faille pas s'attendre à des changements incroyables

Mists of Pandaria

Lundi 30 juillet 2012

 

Le nouveau design des classes de Blizzard à Mists of Pandaria veut qu'aucun talent ne soit obligatoire. De fait un des problèmes qui guettent ces fameux talents est qu'aucun ne soit vraiment intéressant. L'avant dernier palier de talents du Voleur pose ici problème dans ce domaine.

Talents du voleur à MoP

 

Watcher sur Palier de talents niveau 75 du Voleur (Traduction - Source)


Notre impression est que Breuvage mortel était un talent obligatoire en PvP, ce qui va à l'encontre de notre objectif général qui consiste à créer des choix, en même temps il était très fortement situationnel en PvE HL.

Lorsque le nouveau build arrivera sur les serveurs, jeter un œil au nouveaux bonus de set PvP de Mists. Nous avons ajouté de nouveaux bonus en plus de ceux qui existaient déjà dans la majorité des cas, et pour les Voleur, c'est là que Breuvage Mortel est passé.

Cela semble logique, mais il reste la question de savoir pourquoi vous avez privé les joueurs PvE de ce talent? Ce palier de talents n'a vraiment aucune option pour moi. Le talent en lui-même est extrêmement situationnel, cependant je peux lui trouver des utilisations sur les adds de boss qui ont besoin d'être tués très rapidement. Si vous ne voulez pas faire des talents obligatoires pourquoi préparation est toujours une option? Et un mot sur la façon dont Assommer, Aveugler et Suriner profiteront de ce talent?

Deux éléments ici : Premièrement, pour la fonction de Prey on the Weak, les techniques qui en bénéficient le plus sont Coup Bas et Aiguillon Perfide. Aveugler et Assommer et Suriner sont inclus en tant que bénéfices auxiliaires - il peut y avoir des situations où vous utilisez une technique incapacitante pour stocker de l'énergie et préparer un burst, et gagner un peu de dégâts additionnels sur votre attaque d'ouverture (ou l'éclair du chaos de votre coéquipier...) est bien pratique.

Deuxièmement, pour l'utilité de tous les talents de ce palier en PvE, ce que vous questionnez c'est son utilisé en raid. Tous les talents de ce palier ont un fort impact dans les scénarios, les donjons (et si vous écartez l'idée d'utiliser des techniques de contrôle en donjon, jetez un œil aux modes Défis), le gameplay extérieur en solo, etc. La critique pour sa non utilité en raid est acceptable cependant.

La majorité de nos boss de raid n'impliquent pas d'ennemis qui peuvent être étourdis ou incapacités, et je ne vais pas essayer de prétendre le contraire. Et idéalement un palier de talent comme celui de niveau 75 du Voleur devrait plaire à tout le monde, et présenter des choix attrayants pour tous les types de joueurs qui font tous les types de contenu. Il y a trois approches possibles pour résoudre ce problème :

- Ajouter un talent clairement utile en raid à ce palier à la place de Breuvage Mortel; quelque chose qui augmente votre DPS, ou qui augmente votre mobilité ou votre survie. Le problème? Tous les Voleurs qui font des raids prendront ce talent et ignoreront les deux autres.

- Le problème ici est que nous abandonnons totalement la possibilité d'avoir un jour des talents qui améliorent ou reposent sur les effets de contrôle des foules.

- Essayer d'incorporer plus d'opportunités pour les effets de contrôle et les effets de courte durée comme les étourdissements et les incapacités afin qu'ils brillent plus souvent dans nos rencontres de raid. En général les rencontres de raid les plus intéressantes sont celles qui comprennent les déplacements, des contrôles, de la coordination, et pas juste une question de gros DPS. Nous n'en sommes pas encore la, mais je pense que nous aimerions l'être.

 


 

Mardi 19 juin 2012

 

Ghostcrawler a répondu rapidement sur les forums voleur au sujet du DPS des voleurs combat avec deux armes lentes de vitesse 2.6. Celui-ci devrait être assez proche de celui avec une arme main gauche pour Mists of Pandaria.

 

Ghostcrawler sur Armes lentes pour voleur combat (Traduction - Source)

Pouvez-vous nous parler de la viabilité des voleurs spé combat avec 2 armes lentes à 2,6 de vitesse à MoP ? Est-ce que l'on peut abandonner les dagues pour aller chercher des haches ou des épées sans perte de DPS ?

Nous avons fait plusieurs changements pour que les voleurs combat puissent utiliser 2 armes 2,6 en ayant un DPS proche de celui des armes rapides. La dernière fois que j'ai regardé, les armes main gauches rapides étaient théoriquement un peu meilleures.

 


 

Lundi 18 juin 2012


Ghostcrawler continue de répondre aux interrogations des voleurs sur les forums des Mists of Pandaria. Voici un nouveau résumé de ses réponses :

- D'après eux il est impossible d'équilibrer la spécialisation Finesse si elle possède à la fois Préparation et Pas de l'ombre. Les voleurs doivent choisir, le fait que cela soit difficile est exactement ce qu'ils souhaitent. Si les voleurs ne peuvent pas faire sans les deux, Préparation sera supprimé et les temps de recharge de certaines techniques seront un peu diminué.

- Les voleurs les plus optimisés ne voudront pas avoir en même temps le talent Poison sangsue et le talent Poison paralysant. Cependant si vous passez souvent de l'un à l'autre conserver les deux est tout à fait envisageable.

- Le talent Dirty Tricks (pas encore traduit) semble buggé sur la Bêta de Mists of Pandaria à l'heure actuelle. Cela doit être corrigé.

 

Ghostcrawler sur Avenir du voleur à Mists of Pandaria (Source)

He hasn't answere anything about the Prep/Step issue.
Again, I feel like we have made plenty of responses to the topic. I think it's one of those deals where because some players don't like the answer, they say the topic has not been addressed.

For the record, as many players will tell you, Sub is nearly impossible to balance with both Preparation and Shadowstep. On the other hand, having two talents that are both so good that you want them both and have to think long and hard about which one to take and perhaps even swap back and forth from time to time is pretty much exactly what we are trying to deliver with the new talent system. Are rogues doomed in PvP without both? I doubt that. Is it hard to choose? Of course, and that's the point. If we conclude that it's just too cruel to ask rogues to choose between them, we'd likely just cut Prep from the game and perhaps lower a few cooldowns slightly. I really hope though that we aren't in a space where every cool talent has to become mandatory or deleted.

Leeching and paralytic locking each other out
Again, asked and answered. We said that we understand that very optimized rogues won't want both talents because you can only use one at a time. That depends a very great deal on how often you'd use the competing talents. If you find yourself using leeching poison then swapping to paralytic often, you may be better off just keeping both talents than constantly swapping. A Disc priest (on live) doesn't necessarily drop the Atonement talent evey time they think they might not Smite, though very min/max players probably do.

We're going to be underfunded for the first patch of MoP
Do you have any evidence of this? Even anecdotes are better than nothing (though not much better). The classes on beta are getting pretty well balanced at this point at both level 85 and 90 (modulo the occasional bug that creeps in), so if you think you're seeing something we're not, please let us know.

As an aside, I'm not a huge fan of simulations as evidence, because it requires us to debug them first. I used to spend more effort doing that, but it's a chore, and my time is probably better spent elsewhere. Sims are fantastic for suggesting to you that you might want to try a different rotation or stat allocation. They aren't great for "Hey Bliz, my dps is low. Please buff."

Dirty Tricks just sounds like a bug. I don't have our bug database in front of me, but it's hard to make assumptions about neglect based on when a bug gets fixed, so long as it does before launch. It could be that the developer is waiting on a code change to fix the bug. It could be that he or she is pondering how to fix it or if a redesign in the functionality (not the base design) is warranted.

I've been doing this a long time, and one of the truths I have uncovered is that apparently easy bugs are often the hardest to fix and things you predict would take weeks of programming time can be done in a few lines. It's hard to diagnose from the outside.

If you see bugs, report them in the bug forum. Once you have done so, stop worrying about it until we get close to launch.

 



Vendredi 15 juin 2012

Ghostcrawler nous a encore écrit un véritable roman sur les forums officiels. Le sujet du jour étant le voleur et son avenir à Mists of Pandaria. Il semble qu'il ne faille pas s'attendre à des changements incroyables, mais simplement à quelques améliorations par-ci par-là. En voici un résumé des principaux points :

- Les voleurs sont considérés comme étant a un bon niveau tant en PvE qu'en PvP à Cataclysm. De fait ils ne comptent pas faire une refonte du voleur pour faire plaisir a une minorité de peur de mécontenter la majorité a priori satisfaite.

- La classe voleur est aussi considérée comme une des mieux désignées, avec un bon design et un rôle clair tant en PvE qu'en PvP. Les changements faits seront donc la pour épicer un peu le gameplay, mais pas pour modifier des choses qui fonctionnent déjà.

- Un des gros défauts du voleur qui sera en partie corrigé à Mists of Pandaria est sa capacité à changer efficacement de cible et à rapidement faire des dégâts élevés sur sa nouvelle cible. Les points de combo resteront tels quels, avec un temps de montée en puissance, par contre le Poison mortel et la Ruse du bandit seront directement au maximum de leur efficacité.

- Le fonctionnement actuel des points de combo sur la cible convient aux développeurs, il n'est pas prévu de les faire passer sur le voleur.

- Il n'est pas prévu de modifier Série meurtrière ni le design des combats afin de rentabiliser au maximum toutes les techniques du voleur à chaque combat.

- S'il s'avère nécessaire d'augmenter le DPS  des voleurs, les développeurs le feront certainement en améliorant les dégâts des coups de grâce.

- L'opposition classes DPS pures (comme le voleur) vs. Hybrides (comme le druide) est un problème épineux, il est risqué de transformer toutes les classes en hybrides dans la mesure ou elles pourraient y perdre leur identité. Il est aussi difficile de donner une véritable personnalité complètement différente à chaque spécialisation.

- De nouvelles animations de personnage pour les différentes attaques et techniques du voleur sont prévues au long terme (donc pas pour MoP).

- À MoP les voleurs utiliseront moins de coups de grâce, et certains procs offriront des points de combo additionnels pour éviter la rotation DPS soit trop statique.

 

Ghostcrawler sur Avenir du voleur à Mists of Pandaria (Source)

Rogues are in a pretty good place in Cataclysm in both PvE and PvP. We don't see a lot of huge glaring problems that need to be fixed. I realize there are several players out there asking for change just because they're getting bored of the same class or at the very least wanting to spice it up, and that is a totally valid way to feel. But you also have to consider the risk we'd take for all of the rogues out there who are totally happy with the way their class is playing now, thank you very much.

As an example, we changed paladins in Cataclysm because we thought they needed a resource mechanic to make their gameplay more interesting. Overall we're happy with the way that has played out, and it's even better in Mists, but it's also very easy to find "please remove Holy Power" posts regularly. While we disagree with those players, the fact remains that we made the class worse for them.

To use a second example, we are changing warlocks pretty extensively for Mists because we thought they had several fundamental problems. Is every warlock going to like those changes? Of course not. Are there going to lots of players who beg us to revert the changes? Absolutely.

(And this is all ignoring the risk that even changing a mechanic from an acknowledged bad design to a good design still risks frustrating or annoying many players just because they have to relearn something.)

We are trying to fix some of the annoying things rogues have had to deal with and we are trying to offer some options in talents and glyphs that can help spice up the gameplay for someone who has been loyally Sinister Striking for these eight years. But we also don't want to fix what isn't broken. We try really hard not to change classes for the sake of change. It's hard. But we try.

I'd go as far to say that most of the class team would probably agree (and I didn't poll them, so I may be sticking my neck out) that the rogue is the best designed class. And much of that design was in place before virtually any of us started working on classes, so we can't even really take credit for it. The rogue has the best resource system (energy), a strong kit, a good toolbox, and a clear role in PvP and PvE, yet it still has disadvantages to go along with the advantages and can't just do everything flawlessly all the time. It's a good design, again in our humble opinions, which is why you see so few changes to the class overall. But please don't over-read that as my stating that we won't fix bugs, add polish, balance numbers, undo bone-headed design flaws when the need arises, or yes, add a little bit of newness once in awhile just to keep things shiny.


What annoying things have we had to deal with that you're fixing?

I'll just use one example because in our opinion it's the biggest. Layered ramping mechanics were the single biggest weakness rogues have in Cataclysm (and have had for some time). Some ramping is desirable, but too much can really hurt target switching, prohibit fast burst damage, etc. (Don't take this to extremes - we don't need posts from every class pointing out situations in which they can't go from 0 to 60 when target switching and therefore arguing how they need to be redesigned.)

In Mists, we want combo points to be the ramping mechanic. Deadly Poison doesn't need to be a ramping mechanic. Bandit's Guile doesn't need to be a ramping mechanic. We changed the way both of those work.

You may not have thought it was a problem, but we did, and we heard about it a lot from rogue players, so we fixed it.


I sincerely want to know by what measure and according to what data you conclude rogues are "fine" in PvP right now.

What I meant was that we didn't see any crippling design flaws in rogues that needed overhauling in Mists. Sub rogues probably are too good in Cataclysm PvP, or at least 3v3 Arenas, which many players use as synonymous with PvP. It's hard to tell if Assassination and Combat are really weak, or if Sub is so strong that any sensible rogue just plays Sub. It's also entirely possible that it isn't even Sub that is too powerful but just Prep and Shadowstep. In any case, my comment was addressed towards the group of players that believe rogues have this giant list of issues that must be addressed, and at another (perhaps overlapping) group of players that just want us to change things up for the rogue because they're getting bored. Sorry for any confusion.


The combo points issue is a symbolic one, though. This is something a large number of rogues have wanted for a very long time, and the issue gets consistently ignored. I often feel as if there's no point in giving feedback at all when the devs can't even see eye-to-eye with players on how our resources should work.

The feedback doesn't get ignored. We just disagree, which we have to be allowed to do if we're actually going to design the game rather than just letting players vote on how every mechanic should work. We like the way combo points work (meaning on the target). I also suspect you're being a bit presumptuous assuming that all rogues want combo points on the rogue. Yes, rogues would be easier to play if you didn't have to worry about which target your combo points were on. Do rogues need to be easier to play? If so, are combo points the right change? We could eliminate combo points and just give Eviscerate a cooldown. Would that be easier? Would it be more fun? I'm not trying to be dismissive - I think those questions are legitimately hard to answer.

 

A lot of people say killing spree is poorly designed because it doesn't work on those fights, but I firmly believe those situations are a failure of encounter design, not class design. Killing spree and backstab are fine; Blizz needs to learn to take them into account when they design bosses.

We do. But it is not our design intent that every spec can perform the exact same rotation on every fight. I'm certain that if we solved the backstab issue then the next complaint to come up (from some class) would be that every boss fight needs to have 3 targets, because multi-dotting works the best with 3 targets and their DPS will be lower when there is only one target. What do you think the DPS difference is among the 3 rogue specs on Ultraxion? (You can't just look at posted logs to answer that question, because mostly what those logs tell you are that most rogues (and presumably many of the best ones) go Combat for that fight.) What is an acceptable difference? 5%? 1%? 0%?


Obviously I don't have the numbers Blizzard does, but we do know that at least before the legendary daggers rogue was one of the least active classes. No matter if that remains true or not I think it says something when one of the, if not the best designed classes is also one of the least popular. It says that maybe it works great from a design standpoint, but how is that translating to the players?

We look at those numbers of course, but it's really hard to determine cause and effect there. Paladins are nearly always the most played class, but there are just as many paladin players demanding change as there are rogue players (actually, given the population sizes, probably more). So why are some classes more popular than others? It's probably a mix of need, power, kit, flexibility, visuals and a host of other objective and subjective criteria. The hybrid vs. pure issue plays into that a little bit, but it's not the whole answer by a long shot. I definitely don't think it's as simple as if we make a bunch of changes to rogue rotations, now more players will play rogues (consider for starters that we'd almost certainly lose some rogues as well).

 

I agree that this is how the design should be, but this raises the question of whether or not our finishers are powerful enough to warrant this design decision. Compared to the power we lost by having the crit bonuses of our primary abilities taken away, they just don't feel like they're as strong as they should be right now. There are fewer combo points flowing in due to generating talents being taken away, so the gaps between finishers feel unrewarding because the finishers themselves feel unrewarding.

I think it's safe to say that if we find we need to buff rogue damage for any of the specs that we'd look to finishers as a place to increase damage.

 

My big problem right now is that I feel very similar to feral druids and Windwalker monks, without the added benefit of being able to radically change my gameplay on a spec switch. I don't need that radical change, I suppose, being a pure DPS. In PvP it's not a problem as I feel very much like a rogue there, but it's hard to translate into PvE and I end up feeling like a warrior in leather that attacks a bit faster.

I hope Windwalkers feel different. :( Cat druids were designed from the outset to play like rogues, the same way Bears were designed to play just like warriors. We've eroded that a bit over time, but the bones of it remain.

As far as the pure vs. hybrid thing goes, that is a really tricky problem to solve. We could turn all classes into hybrids of course, though I'm also not sure every player would rejoice at such a change. It has been very challenging to make pure specs play fundamentally differently. If the Mists warlocks work out well, then they may feel pretty different (of course they also run the risk I mentioned before of feeling like 3 separate classes and not like warlocks). Some players in this thread mentioned that mages play totally differently, but I think to be fair they feel more different than they really play because fire vs. frost vs. arcane is such a strong theme. It's harder for "I'm an assassination" to have a completely different feel from "I'm a swasbuckler" or "I'm a sneaky guy." We've had the same challenge with hunters. Presumably Marksman hunters are great at using ranged weapons. Okay, what does that mean for Survival? They use traps? Melee? Poison?

 

Also, a lot of our skills are kind of boring and could use just an aesthetic change. Edit: Oh, the actual question is: Is updating rogue animations and making them more unique especially across specs on the table?

I think that's a totally fair criticism, especially of rogues and to a lesser extent warriors. Melee classes just have fewer opportunities for very showy visuals. We could add them anyway, but then the classes feel like they're casting spells and aren't doing melee attacks with weapons. That said, we have tried to give rogues a few great-looking visual effects in Mists. Longer term (meaning it's unlikely for Mists) we'd like to do more with character animation so that all rogue attacks aren't using the same one-handed stab motion (Mutilate at least has its own animation). Historically, player animations have taken us a very long time, and that time only gets worse as we add races. However, for Mists we have some new techniques that let the animators apply the animation from one model more easily to another. It still takes a great amount of time -- just less than it did before. It is most easy to see the benefits of this advance in all of the new animations for the monk class. It's too early to call that technique a success, but assuming it is, we could do the same thing for rogues and warriors and have a lot more variety in the attack animations. (Animation in this sense has a very specific jargony term, which is the movement of the model itself. All of the spell effects are a different system generally handled by a different team of artists.)

 

Then why did you make changes to rogue rotations? This is what people are complaining about. Go play Assassination on live and then go play it on beta at 85, then come back and tell us that Assassination is more fun without Puncturing Wounds and Ruthlessness.

Puncturing Wounds is just crit. We can add more crit if we need too (like we recently did for warriors), but it also risks making crit unattractive at high gear levels. "Why did those stupid designers put crit on rogue gear? Don't they know we don't value it?"

Puncturing Wounds (through Seal Fate) and Ruthlessness can deliver more CPs, but also contribute a lot to getting stuck at 4 CPs, which is something rogues have complained to us about, because it means you need to do a weak finisher or risk overflowing CPs on your next Mutilate. In Mists, Assassination does fewer finishers, but at the same time we introduced the Blindside proc to help the rotation from feeling too static.


To use one of my soon to be patented bad analogies; I feel like every expansion is kind of like Winterveil (to not alienate anyone) and all the classes are opening their gifts to see what this expansion is going to bring them. Some are getting entire new mechanics, some are getting new flashy spells and skills, but rogues are getting Auntie Maven's sweater for the 5th time. Sure it's gonna keep you warm and get you by, but you kinda knew you were going to get it and it's certainly not flashy or exciting.

I honestly believe this is one of those grass is greener deals though. As someone who receives class feedback from both barrels (not that I'm complaining), nearly every class argues that they got a lump of coal and the other guy got something awesome. You'll see a few players saying some new ability or talent is awesome, though they'll do so quietly for fear that we think they are content. :) In fact, I would challenge you to name those classes and specs (not counting monk) that you think got a really good deal in Mists. They'll be here in a second defending their argument that a new spell might appear flashy or sexy but it has Serious Issues or the Real Issues Have Not Been Addressed.

That probably sounds cynical, and I'm honestly not a cynical guy, but it's also what we've come to expect. !

5
Édouard88 il y a 7 ans

J'espère que le fait que les rogues soit la classe la moins joué ne donne pas envie à blibli de lui mettre des sort kikou à la sauce paladin.<br /> <br /> <br /> Ps : j'ai pas compris ce à quoi servait shuriken toss

Édouard88 il y a 7 ans

J'aimerai que l'esprit de cette classe redevienne : apparition - bref contrôle, énorme burst. Si on raté son burst ou ses contrôles on se faisait fumer car on était en carton ( pour les spe finesse en tout cas ). Anticipation et danse de l'ombre modifié vont renforcer cet aspect :) je suis juste inquiet pour le poison stun.<br /> Je suis pour supprimait on de préparation et reduction des cds.

velvo il y a 7 ans

La meilleur classe du jeu ofc <3

Vaniel il y a 7 ans

Vu les talents du voleur, j'ai hâte d'être à MoP car, à part la présence de Preparation et Shadowstep au même niveau de talentss, je trouve qu'il n'y a pas beaucoup à redire. La spé finesse me semble encore mieux qu'avant.^^

Dook il y a 7 ans

Rogues <3

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