Mecredi 11 juillet 2012
Lors de l'introduction du troisième niveau de difficulté de raid à Cataclysm : Le mode Recherche de Raids, Blizzard avait annoncé que le système de distribution du butin utilisé était provisoire, celui-ci devant être remplacé par quelque chose de plus adapté à Mists of Pandaria.
Ghostcrawler explique ici en détail son nouveau mode de fonctionnement, qui n'est pas sans rappeler en partie celui de Diablo III. Le principe est simple, lorsque vous êtes dans un Raid en mode « Recherche de Raids », quand un boss meurt, le système détermine individuellement pour chaque joueur s'ils ont droit à une part du butin. Le nombre de joueurs n'est pas déterminé, et le fait que d'autres joueurs aient été choisis pour recevoir un objet n'a aucun impact sur vos chances d'obtenir un objet. Ensuite le système détermine quel objet utile il peut vous remettre. Cela sera forcément un objet que vous ne possédez pas déjà, et que vous pourrez utiliser.
L'objectif est que les chances des joueurs de sortir du raid avec un ou plusieurs objets soient similaires à ce qu'elles sont aujourd'hui. Ce changement n'est pas fait pour rendre la distribution du butin plus rapide, mais d'éviter de frustrer des joueurs en remettant des objets à d'autres joueurs alors qu'ils n'en ont pas besoin entre autres.
- Le jeu fait un jet de dé en interne pour chaque joueur afin de déterminer s'ils ont droit à un objet. Statistiquement il existe une chance (très faible) que les 25 joueurs en obtiennent un.
- Les boss de raid extérieurs (world boss) fonctionneront de la même façon, il n'y aura donc aucune pénalité si vous invitez tous les joueurs de la zone pour les tuer, vos chances d'obtenir des objets resteront les mêmes. Il faudra cependant que les joueurs concernés soient dans le raid qui a engagé le boss.
- Les objets obtenus avec ce système ne peuvent PAS être échangés avec un autre joueur du raid.
- Pour déterminer l'objet qui vous est attribué, le système consulte votre spécialisation active, pas votre classe.
- Si ce système fonctionne, il sera peut-être intégré dans les donjons 5 joueurs. Cependant le fait que vous ne puissiez pas forcement jouer la spécialisation que vous souhaitez peu être un problème, surtout couplé à la petite taille des tables de butin. Si vous possédez déjà tous les objets de ce boss il est possible que vous receviez des points de vaillance ou de l'or à la place (ces points sont hypothétiques).
Ghostcrawler sur Nouveau système de butin de la Recherche de Raids (Source)
Normal raid (Live and Mists):
1) Boss dies.
2) The game determines what loot he drops.
3) The group works out who gets what item, perhaps by random roll.
Raid Finder on Live:
1) Boss dies.
2) The game determines what loot he drops.
3) Players for whom the loot is appropriate get a chance to Need or Greed.
Raid Finder in Mists:
1) Boss dies.
2) The game decides who is going to get loot. Each player has a small and independent chance to win loot.
3) The game picks loot appropriate for those players.
The key point is that traditional loot systems determine what loot drops first and then who gets it. In the new Raid Finder loot, the system determines who is going to win loot, and then picks something appropriate for them.
The chance of you walking out of Raid Finder with loot will be about the same as it is today. Our goal isn't to distribute loot faster. However, you won't have the frustration of seeing an item that you want appear only to go to someone who doesn't want it, doesn't need it or doesn't care. Likewise, you won't have other players begging you to let them have the item that you won fair and square. In all likelihood the entire Raid Finder raid is composed of strangers who may never see each other again, so social pressure doesn't really work and we just plan on removing it with regards to loot.
I think one of the real questions here is how does the game determine this exactly.
It starts at the first player and rolls a number from 1-100. If it rolls <5, you win loot. Then it goes to the next player. The game doesn't care what any individual player rolled, so once under a blue moon it might be possible for all 25 to get loot. (The actual chance might not be 5%, but you get the idea.)
This is why there is no concept of passing or anything else, because whether you win loot or not has no bearing on whether other players win loot.
This is sort of off-topic but semi-related, but how will World Bosses work?
Will they use the LFR loot system or require that I be in the group that tagged it? I foresee a lot of same-faction griefing if it didn't use the LFR one (ie: pulling the boss early and dropping combat immediately forcing it to respawn several minutes later in a different location, or just plain pulling it early to wipe the group before they're ready) or pulling a lot of extra nearby mobs, etc.
We might have loot work slightly differently on the two world bosses since they appear at different frequencies. In general world bosses work exactly like LFR. If you want to invite everyone in the area into the raid, it won't diminish your chance to get loot. The only reason to not invite people is if you want to be a jerk for some reason. Individuals do have to be in the group that has loot rights (i.e. tagged the boss). We are fine with there being some competition especially on PvP servers; that's part of what world bosses are all about. If you just loiter in the vicinity and do a little damage but aren't part of the raid group, you won't have a shot at loot.
I know you didn't mention here, GC, but someone (Blue) has in the past, and that is the idea that the mechanism for LFR loot distribution may be that the game chooses X random people to win loot, where X is some number either hardcoded into the loot system, or chosen by some other mechanism at the time the loot drops (for example).
We considered that approach, but were concerned that it would pressure groups into killing a boss with the smallest group possible. Theoretically if you killed a boss with 5 characters, then each would win loot and you would be motivated not to invite friends or strangers. We went with a model where the number of characters has no bearing on whether you win loot or not.
All of this is for Raid Finder and world bosses. Dungeon Finder (for now) still uses the Cataclysm system and guild raids use whatever system you want, such as Master Looter or Free for All.
So does that mean if you win something in LFR in mists it is NOT tradeable?
So if two friendly priests queue for LFR and one of them wins a piece that he already has, he cannot trade it to his GF who actually needs it?
Correct. Being able to trade loot works great with groups of friends. It can work okay if you are a nice person, but there isn't much incentive to look out for your fellow players if you aren't likely to ever group with them again. Overall it just seems to cause loot drama. "Trade with me, because I ran this raid a dozen times and didn't get the drop." "Trade with me, because it's a bigger upgrade for me than you." "Give me that item, because I inspected your achievements and I raid more than you." This anonymity is one of the weaknesses of Raid Finder for sure, but we think in the long run that the strengths of being able to join a raid whenever you want outweigh those limitations.
Will it select loot as it deems "appropriate" for just the class in general, or for their specific spec? I would really hate to win loot, just to find out i received an item for holy, when I am playing Ret.
It looks at your spec, not your class. We decided it was a superior design to give you something for a role that we know you use rather than trying to guess whether you ever like to tank or not. There are plenty of other avenues (dungeons, factions, scenarios, crafting, the AH, PvP, guild runs, etc.) to gear up for an alternate spec.
With random rolls you don't really get that feeling because it is all visible and most people don't believe that Blizzard is altering the /roll just for them (although sometimes it feels that way). The new LFR system doesn't look very transparent, and so a person constantly seeing nothing go into their bags might lose hope that they will win anything and stop raiding altogether.
Possibly, but there are plenty of cases today where players don't believe that random roles are random. :)
What if it's entirely guild based group, it will still use LFR loot rules and not master looter? that seems a bit ackward.
I honestly don't remember. Usually if we know the group is pre-made, then we let you use what loot rules you want. The only reason we would not have implemented that way is if it was technically challenging for some reason, and I just can't remember which way it ended up. For world bosses, I suspect it still uses the Raid Finder loot system, because we didn't want there to be any reason to exclude a friend of a friend or whatever.
Does this mean that you might consider switching the Dungeon Finder loot system to use something similar to the new LFR system? I realize that random 5-man groups should be able to distribute loot appropriately through communication, but in practice this seldom happens. Instead, some people will roll need on everything they can which ends up in undesirable loot distribution - particularly with respect to gear that is not armor-type restricted (e.g., Hunter rolling need on dodge trinket).
If the Raid Finder loot system works out, we would consider adding it to dungeons. One of the challenges is that dungeon bosses typically have shallower loot tables than raid bosses. If you are a Holy paladin and the dungeon boss doesn't have a Holy paladin item, we would have to decide how to handle that (maybe you can't win a roll for that boss, or maybe you'd get gold or valor instead). For raid bosses, we can make sure every boss has at least one thing you can use. (Granted, you may already own that item.)
The game keeps track of who is in who's group upon entering LFR. If say 5 friends grouped up to help one person gear, couldn't the game allow trading of items that drop between those people only? That way everyone still gets their roll chance but if a few geared players want to help a friend they still can? It wouldn't affect the overall roll chance in the new LFR system but it would allow people who want to help their friends gear up quickly for whatever reason.
Potentially. If the basic system works out we could consider adding something like this. It would have the risk / side-effect that a group of 25 players could still potentially funnel every item to one player and gear that player up faster. Maybe that's fine.
Raiden Robin
Mercredi 4 juillet 2012
La sortie de Mists of Pandaria va changer les règles de loot pour les raids lancé avec l'outil de recherche de raid. Désormais, c'est le jeu lui-même qui décidera qui aura des loots avant même de déterminer quels seront les loots.
Les personnes obtenant un loot ne pourront obteni qu'un objet dont elles peuvent avoir besoin.
Raid normal (Live et MoP):
1) Le boss meurt.
2) Le jeu détermine les loots.
3) Le groupe décide de l'attribution des loots, peut être même de manière aléatoire.
Recherche de raid sur le Live :
1) Le boss meurt.
2) Le jeu détermine les loots.
3) Les joueurs qui peuvent équiper les loots ont une chance de faire Besoin ou Cupidité.
Recherche de raid à MoP :
1) Le boss meurt.
2) Le jeu décide quels joueurs auront des loots. Chaque joueur a une chance de gagner des loots.
3) Le jeu donne des loots appropriés à ces joueurs.Le système de loot traditionnel détermine en premier quels sont les loots et après les joueurs qui peuvent les avoir. Avec le nouveau système de loot pour la Rercherche de raid, le système détermine en premier qui aura les loots et ensuite donne des loots appropriés à ces personnes.
Les chances de repartir du raid avec un ou des loots sont à peu près les mêmes qu'aujourd'hui. Notre but n'est pas de donner des loots plus rapidement. Mais au moins vous n'aurez plus la frustration de voir des objets que vous voulez partir sur des personnes qui ne les veulent pas, n'en ont pas besoin ou s'en fichent. Il n'y aura plus de joueur qui viendra vous supplier de leur donner le ou les objets que vous avez obtenus.
Eskrau
